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Paul Karpecki, OD, FAAO, of Kentucky Eye Institute, sits down with Jerry St. Peter, co-founder, CEO, and director of Eyevance. Together they look back at Jerry’s impactful career in ophthalmology. Jerry shares pearls of wisdom around building businesses, wading through acquisitions, and the importance of surrounding yourself with quality people to stay on the road to success. There’s something for everyone in this conversation. Press play now!
Paul: Hello, I’m Dr. Paul Karpecki, Director of Cornea External Disease, Kentucky Eye Institute and honored to get to present for the OIS Podcast today with a great innovator in in the field of Ophthalmics, really, you know, we were joking earlier before we started this presentation before I introduce you, as this is an individual who truly has the Midas touch, and seems like everything Jerry’s involve in hits gold. And I’d love for him to share a ton of ideas and insights. And you know how this came about so that everyone listening can utilize some of these key pearls and insights, because we have so many entrepreneurs, so many great leaders, so many people in industry, and so many practitioners that listen to OIS Podcast, and it creates this wonderful opportunity. So Jerry, welcome to the podcast.
Jerry St Peter: Thank you very much Paul, it’s great to be here. And I appreciate your introduction. And I’m going to make sure my family watches the introduction. Because at home, I definitely don’t get those type of accolades. So I appreciate it.
Paul: It’s true, you’re never a prophet in your own state here. And I can relate. Thank you. And thanks for being here on such a timely occasion, as your most recent company, obviously, was acquired by San Tan. And so for you to make the time in such a busy transition says a lot about you, we really appreciate the opportunity. Hey, I’m gonna, let’s start by you know, I’ve been lucky to know you for a long time, and many of us have, and because you’ve been in industry, and you’ve created incredible impacts, but there are a lot of people listening may not and can you briefly walk us through your personal background, you know, even growing up where, you know, yeah, education, if relevant, then the professional path, how that came about, and how you got in the field of Ophthalmics and eyecare.
Jerry St Peter: Great. Well, first of all, I appreciate OIS having me on today, and it means a lot. And it’s pretty exciting about talking about the company. But really the true flavor of what we’ve been able to do and Eyevance, you know, starts by, you know, an exceptional group of professionals I work with and, you know, kind of looking back over my career, all the steps, I’ve taken a really, you know, transformed into what Eyevance was able to do. So I appreciate the question. So I’m very excited to let you know, and I just celebrated 30 years in the ophthalmic space. So someone that shows my age, but also it shows how much I’m passionate about ophthalmics. So Paul, born and raised, as a Bostonian, born about 30 minutes outside of Boston in a city called Lowell, Massachusetts, which is an incredible, hard working blue collar city. My parents, you know, come from a blue collar background, my dad was a police officer, mom raised three children. And really from an early age, you know, they were the foundational bedrock of, you know, what I had been able to do and kind of the principles in which I led my life. And, you know, I did my schooling locally, went to the University of Lowell, which actually now was called the University of Massachusetts at Lowell, I originally majored in the field of physical therapy, but then changed my major to health education with a minor in sports medicine. And it was at that point that I became introduced to the field of pharmaceuticals, through the number of physicians that I was able to engage with during my collegiate career. And one of the doctors in particular mentioned to me, he said, Do you want to go out and teach since you have a degree in health education? And I said, actually, no. You know, I want to do something different, but I want to be health related. I love biology, anatomy, physiology. He said, I see these people that come into my office every day. They’re called pharmaceutical detail reps. And he said, Why do you come by the office and shadow me for a day and I’m sure you’ll meet some of these representatives. So I did. Fell in love. With what they were able to do, and conversing with doctors and being experts in their fields, and literally from walking off stage at graduation, I started my career in 1989, with Neuro pharmaceutical. And for all of the eye care professionals that are listening to this podcast, you probably recognize the name neuro by some of the products that have its name like Muro 128. Opcon-A. So those are some of the products in the late 80s that I was able to represent. One funny bit of information, Paul, I think you’ll appreciate people ask me all the time, you know, what is the name Muro? And what is, you know, why the 128? So Muro was established as a company by an Irishman, and a good Jewish gentleman. So was it was John Murphy and Sam Rosenberg MU on the Murphy and RO in the Rosenberg that became Muro, and then on 128, which is sodium chloride. There’s two schools of thoughts. One, it was named after the highway that the laboratory was on, which was route 128, in Boston, but someone else told me that it was due to the periodic table of sodium chloride, sodium is the number 11 on the periodic table, and chloride is number 17, which is 28. If you add them together, and then Murphy and Rosenberg decided to put the one in represents route 128. So I think that’s a funny, funny story that a lot of people don’t know what’s behind that.
Paul: Had no idea.
Jerry St Peter: Yeah, so I spent 13 years of your own, you know, but most of those years are actually spent in respiratory, because Muro was made up of Ophthalmics and Respiratory. But really early on in my career, we sold that product line of Ophthalmics to Bausch and Lomb. And so really, for most of my years at Muro, it was heavily respiratory, pulmonary allergy. And I did have one ophthalmic later in my career for 13 years called Optiver. We launched a lasting topically for the eye at Muro. So that company eventually got sold. I went from being a sales representative, and living both in Boston and California. And I then, after 13 years, I became the Chief Commercial Officer, and the company sold. And then I was recruited by a small biotech company that had no business, no commercial infrastructure called Inspire. And that’s actually where you and I met.
Jerry St Peter: And I joined inspire back in 2003, as the vice president of sales, and over eight years, worked my way up and developed Inspire with a great group of individuals into a company that was generating north of $150 million, which we’re very proud that we launched AzaSite, which became an incredible product that generated over 100 million. And through my eight years, we built a tremendous legacy that people still talking about, at Inspire. And I eventually was running the entire ophthalmology business before it was acquired by Merck in 2011. Inspira was acquired. So from there, I then joined Nicox, which was a French company, they had no tentacles in the United States. And Nicox wanted to enter, and I was the EVP and general manager of Nicox brought them into the United States. And we focused in on Ophthalmic diagnostics. And we were there for a short time, it was about three years. And then Bausch and Lomb acquired the business, the diagnostic business. And directly after that, we started Sun Ophthalmics. And Sun is a very large global company that was looking to enter the US build up it’s branded business platform. And they had a desire to get into the ophthalmic space. And myself and some of my colleagues went in and built up, sign up Sun Ophthalmics from dirt. And over the past three years, I think it was like 2015 to 2017. We did a number of acquisitions. We acquired insight vision, we launched Brahm site, which became a tremendous non-steroidal. Jason Warner, my co founder led the deal to acquire CEQUA, which is the cyclosporin product which was recently launched and doing very well. So we brought a lot of value. But then Paul, it really came to Jason and I in particular, had been very close colleagues for a number of years. This is now our fourth company. And many nights in a Marriott sitting at the bar, thinking about what we want to do, we devised a strategy and a plan that we want to go out on our own. And, and what we’ve done for all these other companies, we want to do for ourselves. And we got private equity backed by an amazing private equity firm called Avego Healthcare Capital, great private equity firm, back, Jason and I, we started Eyevance. And we developed a strategy of building this company on two distinct platforms one impactful products, we wanted to bring in revenue generating assets that were throwing off revenue, so we could build a business. But we also wanted to bring in products that we could put into our pipeline, and create a research and development arm. And so this two prong approach really made Eyevance a unique proposition as we want it to come in. And we want to own the Oculus surface, because so many other companies have gotten away from the Oculus surface, the anterior segment, with the exception of dry eye disease, but everything else, all these other companies have walked away. And so currently at Eyevance, when we started, I was the co founder and CEO, and director. And it’s been nothing but joy ever since. So that takes you over 30 years of my career.
Paul: And it was really well summed up in lots of incredible insights. And, of course, Eyevance so how many years were you there? It seems so quick from the time you started kind of yet. And all of a sudden, there’s an announcement here of a merger and acquisition already.
Jerry St Peter: Yeah. So we started. We established a company in September 2017. And we were acquired by Santen. In September of 2020. So exactly three years, we were there. But really the process of Santen. And I’ve and starting to have dialogue was well before then. Yeah. So it’s, it’s just an incredible venture. And Eyevance, and I could not be more proud of what we’ve been able to do with the organization.
Paul: Really amazing. And it amazes me to without giving away your your trade secrets. But how do you how do you acquire so many products in such a short time people come out and say, well, there’s there’s limited availability of things out there. And we’re going through FDA process that can take a long time and dry eyes. You mentioned earlier, we’ve had, you know, only two categories of approval, really, those are out of at least 20 plus that have tried. So people feel like there’s certainly a scarcity. And yet how many years had five products or some of the R&D make even greater? How do you do that?
Jerry St Peter: So two words, Jason Warner.
Jerry St Peter: You know, Jason, doesn’t get as just do a lot. Just because as our personalities are very unique. I call him the wizard behind the curtain. And Jason is an incredible Encyclopedia of all the marketed assets in Ophthalmics and all the development stage. And he is honestly, he’s a brilliant professional. And somebody that not only is a dear colleague and Co-founder, but a dear friend. And I just think he’s a he’s been invaluable to my success in the company. And we were able to collectively do seven deals in the first 24 months, that produced 10, either marketed assets or development, stage assets, seven deals in two years. And to give you a barometer of what’s typical, most companies do one deal every three years. So we did seven. And, and we put together an incredible platform of products marketed five of them generating revenue, and the other five are either in research and development at different phases, but most of them are late stage.
Paul: Really phenomenal. So a few lessons amongst that besides surrounding yourself with incredible people like, Warner and other I mean, really, what’s great about you guys is your how your personalities complement each other.
Jerry St Peter: Yeah.
Paul: That’s a really good lesson. Were there any other lessons you learned along the way that led to this kind of success?
Jerry St Peter: Yeah, you know, you know, Paul, and you’re right. The best thing about Jason and I, we’re very different. And we bring different skill sets. And we’re kind of Yin and Yang. And the beautiful thing is we have these arguments, we have these discussions, we challenge each other, but essentially a CEO, that’s what I want in my executive team. And that’s why I’m very blessed. I went out and got Wes Brazell. And you know, Wes, yes, probably one of the most accomplished CFOs. He’s brilliant, both operationally and business development. That’s been a blessing to me. So he’s my CFO. I went out and got Dr. Mark Jasek, who is an incredible mind in Research and Development in medical affairs, but also So he understands the commercial side of the business. And then really to complete the puzzle, I went out and got Julie Speed, who is probably one of the one of our highest, you know, rated Chief Commercial Officers in the business. And the strength of that team, is absolutely the core of, of assisting and driving that success. Because, you know, it takes a leadership team to influence, drive, motivate and inspire the entire conglomerate of Eyevance. And so that’s, that’s really where it all starts. That’s the epi center. And if I get it right there, you have heavily increased your probability of success, that those tentacles of success are going to bring in more people that are really going to be the foundational DNA of this organization.
Paul: Makes sense? The early I’d really incredible example. And it’s truly you look back now and say, you know, you got the best players on the team. I mean, it’s just like a great hockey team that has all, All-Stars, he got a pretty good chance of winning some games. So
Jerry St Peter: One thing Paul, I’ll add is, and I’ve used this a lot, and people have asked me about building companies, I could care less what the name of the company is, I could care less what shingle that you hang from a doorway. That doesn’t mean anything to me, it means the people you run with, okay? It’s the people you run with the people you trust, you respect and you go to battle with. And it’s the same way in business as it is with my relationships with ophthalmologists and optometrists, you know, I pride myself on the people I run with within the specialty. That’s why I love it. That’s why I love working with you. Because of how genuine you are and how honest you are. And you speak the truth. And that goes for many people that I’m associated with, it’s about the people, not the shingle you hang, it’s about the people.
Paul: That’s impressive. I think it’s true, we get hung up so much on the product, the shingle, the technology. And yet even if you had all of those are perfectly number eight people, it probably not can be that successful. Really great insights with anybody who is building a company who is building a practice anything that they’re, you know, really starts running themselves with the best people. And and you’re going to do fine. I think people worry well, the best people might cost more, and they may not see, you know, but you also had people who really, you know, understood, I guess the mission of what this company was going to do. And we’re talking about Eyevance. Now you could also apply it inspire your entrepreneurial all these companies, but that could see the bigger picture for where this is going to when you’re you interview looking for that you just knew it from relationships like you’ve had with Jason and Julie and Wes, and all the others, Mark? Or is there something in particular you try to find to identify that person?
Jerry St Peter: It’s good question. There’s a lot of things in life and a lot of things of a person’s makeup that you cannot teach this things that are just innate in this things that are ingrained in somebodies fabric. And that’s somebody that I have to trust somebody, if I can’t trust them, the relationships going nowhere. Number two, the work ethic that’s filled with integrity. And it’s a work ethic that’s still that’s really filled with the attitude that I can get it done. I will get it done. And, the third thing is passion. Okay, I can’t teach somebody passion. Either you have it or you don’t. You have a decision to make every single day. When you when that alarm goes off? Do you hit snooze and go back to bed? Or do you put both in the ground and go out and say, I’m going to get it done, I’m going to succeed come hell or high water. And those are things that you cannot teach. Okay. And that’s the thing. I look at everybody, and especially my commercial group, my sales representatives, I can take raw talent, I can take someone that, you know, graduated college that walked across the stage that worked jobs throughout the collegiate career, that did more on the weekends, working, hustling, trying to get things done, but don’t know anything about ophthalmology or optometry, I can teach that. But if they come to the game with all those intangibles, then I hit a home run. And that’s going to those are the things I look for in anybody.
Paul: Great, great. I love that you mentioned, you know, with Santen, that although the deal just happened in September, they had been had been talking to them and over time. How do you know for people who have companies who are kind of in some development stage, and maybe they are looking for this? Do you look for that you just put your nose to the grindstone and know that people are going to come to you? Is it because of relationships you’ve had in the past that you’ve built up through networking and how is how did you do that so well. What led to kind of the discussion with Santen?
Jerry St Peter: Yeah, that’s a very good question. Well, first of all, when you start a company that is backed by private equity This is this is a factual statement, when you’re backed by private equity, at some point, you have to realize there’s going to be an exit. Okay? And you know that I know that big companies that are looking to acquire you know that when you’re when you’re backed by private equity, that’s number one. Number two, anytime you start a company, and you’re looking for investors, the first thing you’re going to be asked by investors is, What’s your plan? What’s your strategy? And what’s your exit strategy? And who’s going to buy you? That’s what every investor asked me, who was going to buy you eventually. And so when Jason and I started the company, you know, we had to answer those questions. And we this is a an honest statement, we truthfully believed that if we executed on the strategy that we set out to do, we believed that we would be the perfect partner, the perfect collaborator, the perfect acquisition target by Santen. That was the number one company we believe that would have interest in us, because they were a large multinational, that was doing, you know, north of $2 billion in sales annually, but had no commercial infrastructure, no business infrastructure in the United States. So we, we believed that if we execute our strategy, put our nose to the grindstone, we didn’t focus on the exit at all. We never focused on the exit, we focused on getting our work done, fulfilling our strategy, and working as hard as we ever have to create an amazing company, that we wanted people to look at us and say, We want Eyevance, we love Eyevance. Oh my God, look what Eyevance has done. The people of Eyevance are great, that’s what we wanted. And if we did that, then everything else is gravy, everything else will happen. And that’s what we did.
Paul: That’s phenomenal. I love the insight of even knowing or having a vision for where you’re going to be. And of course, you’re part of it, because it was your ride p back. But it’s also because the questions came up. And I think if you can clearly see the future vision and you have more chance of hitting it. I mean, you got to have a target if you want to try and get there and
Jerry St Peter: We had a vision board Paul, we had a vision board.
Paul: Love it.
Jerry St Peter: Yeah, it lives. Let me tell you something, a lot of punches to the gut along the way. A lot of nervous nights, stressed beyond belief. So you know, it’s not all roses, as you know. But, man, it toughened me up. It toughened me up.
Paul: I love the vision board. Did you? Is the vision board more just the executive team? It’s kind of part of that? Or how far down does that vision board get shared? How many who contributes? I really do believe there’s something to that you have something you can tangibly feel and see for the future? How do you set that up?
Jerry St Peter: Well, there’s two elements to it. First of all, it’s set up through the initial strategy that Jason and I devised. As co founders of the business, we had buy in from our largest private equity investor, we also had a slew of angel investors, people that believed in us that invested, which means the world to me, as an entrepreneur, they put their own hard earned tax money into us. But we had this strategy, we had belief, we had a plan than we had it. We had it agreed upon, and then we galvanized it. And then it was shared with everyone in the organization of what we want to become. It’s just like growing up as a young man, can you envision, you know what you want to become, and how you want to show up, it’s the same thing we did in the business. And that was our vision board. And, you know, Jason and I are big believers in building the business. There’s two people, two types of people in this world is poverty class thinkers, in this world class thinkers, and we want to think world class, we want to think how to do things to the best of our ability, and do something we can be very proud of, and that people end up admiring of what we what we’ve done, but it starts with the people. And so that vision board, definitely flowed throughout the organization.
Paul: That’s brilliant. Now, the thing that really fascinates me too, because there’s a lot of, you know, this field, this industry of Ophthalmics, Optometry, Ophthalmology, and the industry is so unique in that sense, but there’s also you know, there’s going to be other entrepreneurs that are within a large organization, who, you know, just have that kind of ability that business mind like yours, the people who have the aspirations, but you know, they’re in a good organization. They’re valued, of course, in that but they have this aspiration for just like you did one day you and Jason decided you’re gonna just start writing things out and launch a company any advice for that person? Could they just, they just do it? Should you come and calculate it? What things you really have to have in place to say this would be a good move?
Jerry St Peter: Yeah, what I would share, Paul, is that you just don’t wake up one day. Say I’m going to be an entrepreneur, I’m going to go out and start a business. Okay? I know for me, this is just me personally, I have gotten nowhere in life without the people I surround myself with. And that includes the guy that’s interviewing me. And I mean that in all sincerity. And I’m not a student of the game Paul, I’m a student of life. And a student of life, I’ve learned from a very early age from my parents, who have drilled into me, you know, my DNA makeup of how I am as a person, the integrity I carry, how I respect people that have paved the way for me, and that has just moved along my entire career. And as my advice goes, every stop from zero all the way to present day, I’m continuously learning lessons in life. You know, I was told as a young buck, I was 22 years old, starting in this industry. And one of my first mentors was George Behrakis. He’s one of the most successful Greek-Americans that started me out. And he told me very young in life, he said to me, Listen, Jerry, he goes, you need to get out of here, you need to get out of all you need to get out of Boston, and I’m going to move you somewhere in the country, I’m going to move you to California, and I want you to learn the business, I want you to open up a region for me. And I want you to do that. Because all you know, is Boston, all you know, was Lowell. And he said to me, if you don’t, he goes, five years from now, you’re gonna go to the same bar, the same restaurant, and nothing’s gonna change. So I moved to 23, out to California opened up Business Forum. And he taught me that I need to make the necessary moves along my career, to continuously better myself, and to set myself up for the next thing. And so what I tell all people in their careers, even people young, I tell them, you got to move, you got to shake things up, you got to try different things, you got to fall on your face, you know, don’t get caught into one pathway, branch off, branch off, and learn different things. Because not only as you get older, and you gave those experiences, but your life’s gonna change. And it’s just human nature, you’re going to want more, you’re going to want variety. And for me, personally, everything I’ve learned in life along the way, got me to the point that I surrounded myself with the right people, I listened to the right people, I really fed off mentors, and I listened. And then I put that all into action. And being an entrepreneur. And I was at that point while I was willing to take the risk, and lay it all on the line. And honestly Paul, I would not let myself fail. Yeah, that’s, that’s the mindset. And you have to put those blinders on to a degree that I am going to succeed. So it’s lessons in life along the way. And knowing knowing that I don’t know everything. And I’m okay saying that.
Paul: That’s awesome. You can see and haven’t had this interview before you started the company, you would know us was going to be successful at every stage. I mean, just those insights, the team, the way that you’re, you know, just such great leadership and very selfless leadership, which I think is so key to having a team kind of rally around you the way that you’ve done and all of us now, you know, probably valuable to kind of understand now this this merger Eyevance, you’ve got some of the best products in every class you’ve been able to acquire and build up. You’ve had great momentum. I mean, every product you have I use clinic we all do. What does the portfolio look like now, within Santen? For those who work with Eyevance a lot is, you know, prescribed a lot of the medications. What does this mean now as part of Santen do, what happens on the R&D components? What should we expect going forward?
Jerry St Peter: Yeah, very good question. So I think one of the attractions of Santen acquiring Eyevance was if you kind of frame it up, you know, you got this large strategic ophthalmic company. They’re based in Japan. They’re in 60. They have their products in over 60 countries. They have a direct presence in over 45 countries. But the United States market, which is a largest in the world, is untapped. So you think about it, you know, to do $2 billion and not be in the US is significant. And so one of the attractions of Eyevance was that we are a fully integrated company. We have a deep portfolio of marketed assets, five of them, and we have development stage assets. And what they saw was that Eyevance was solely dedicated to the ocular surface anterior segment. And when you look at Flarex, you know, that was a product that we acquired from Novartis, which is fluorometholone acetate, which has the most broad label of any clinical steroid that’s currently promoted. It has the most broad label for ocular surface inflammation of the cornea and conjunctiva in the anterior segment. No one else has that. And so we saw Flarex as a beachhead moment for events, because we know that there are a significant need to treat inflammation on the ocular surface, specifically with a huge disease like dry eye disease, which is, you know, Flarex is a perfect product to treat inflammation around that. So that was like our first entry, which created the company, then we acquired Freshkote, Preservative Free, which you know very well, which is an amazing tier of lubricant, which is a very unique formulation. And then, about a year year into the business, we then a year and half of the business, we acquired Tobradex ST, which was just sitting there on the shelf at Novartis. And, you know, Tobradex name alone is such an iconic name mean that brand was doing over $300 million dollars 10 years ago, if you monetize that name, today, you’ll be doing over $600 million. And the ST formulation, the sustained technology, which allowed it to reduce the dexamethasone to 50% of the original formulation, you know, along with the technology of the xanthan gum, you know, really provides us to build on the Tobradex name with the ST. And really, you know, go after, you know, the treatment of blepharitis and meibomian gland disease. I’m thrilled about Tobradex ST. And then we launched Zerviate, which is the first new treatment for allergic conjunctivitis for the itch in over 10 years. And who doesn’t suffer from allergies, and who’s who doesn’t suffer from itch associated with allergic conjunctivitis. And we have September Xen in Zerviate, which is the most commonly known and used it by histamine globally, otherwise known DESERTEC. And then finally a product we don’t promote too much. But it’s the only one in the world that’s FDA approved for fungal infections is Natacyn. And that’s a product that we have globally. And it’s a necessity. We’re in the World Health Organization’s list of essential medicines. So we have those five marketed assets on the Oculus surface anterior segment, now with Santen looking at us as a good target, you know, they have an incredible depth in glaucoma, retina in some other areas of the eye. I mean, you’re talking about a world class outfit around research and development, I mean, they are so well known. And now Eyevance can come in, obviously, as part of the family and it gives them you know, an organization that are experts in ocular surface anterior segment. And then they have a deep R&D Pipeline of glaucoma, retina and other and now you cover the whole spectrum, upholstery interior and glaucoma, it really became, in my eyes a perfect match.
Paul: It sure seems like it is going to be great. And then now to have you know, the talents and the attributes of each company, you know, that, that establish that global presence with US presence, it really is a perfect match. Very exciting for the future for you, the company and for all of us practitioners in the eye care field, as well. Jerry, this has been absolutely terrific, truly insightful. I love some of the business pearls you shared. I mean anybody listening to that could, you know learn and utilize and everything you know, your willingness to share so many things that all makes sense. So you can see why it’s been so successful. But there’s only going to lead to even greater success within the industry as people adopt these. Some are doing it very well. And we can see why they’ve done well. Others will gain pearls from this. Thanks for sharing your wisdom, hear your insights, hear your success, and of course, your friendship, and appreciate it. Wonderful, wonderful interview. Thank you.
Jerry St Peter: No, I appreciate it, Paul. And it’s a pleasure getting on, picked out of OIS and work with them for many years. And you know, Paul, but before we sign off here, the one thing that I get really excited about is I am am so committed to the field of Ophthalmics. And I take a lot of pride being an entrepreneur. And a big part of that learning does come from you think about all the doctors out there both in optometric and ophthalmology, that have started their own business and started their own practice, who took out loans, who got investors who bought equipment and took the same risk that I did. I mean, that is that in itself is an amazing story. And I think there’s a direct tie in between what we did it Eyevance in what so many other doctors have done, you know, taking on that stress of building a business. And I think that’s one of the one of the great things about running a business in America.
Paul: Wonderful! Couldn’t end on a better note than that. Thank you, Jerry, that was terrific to get to have the time with you. Thanks for the incredible amount of sharing insights. Thank you OIS for putting on the podcast specially thank you to all of those who are listening for taking the time and hopefully you’ve gained some great insights as well.
Jerry St Peter: Thank you very much, Paul. Have a good holiday and let’s go 2021!
Paul: Happy holidays. Thanks Jerry! Go 2021!